My Perfect Path

Running her own Telehealth practice in her 20s. Angela Pham's "Resilient Path"

• Daniel Koo • Season 2 • Episode 8

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What if your biggest failure became the foundation for your life's purpose? Dr. Angela Pham's journey from academic struggle to mental health occupational therapist reveals the transformative power of resilience and self-discovery.

As a first-generation college student from a low-income single-parent household, Dr. Pham entered USC with high expectations but soon faced a devastating setback. "I decided to drop out of my bio class with a W," she shares, recalling how this first academic failure became a pivotal turning point. Rather than giving up, she began exploring occupational therapy courses that taught her coping strategies and lifestyle modifications. "I figured out how my mind works, ways to make myself thrive... that inspired me to pursue the career that I chose."

Today, Dr. Pham runs her own telehealth practice specializing in mental health occupational therapy—an area pursued by only about 3% of OTs in the United States. She works with clients experiencing ADHD, autism, anxiety, depression, and burnout, using a neuro-affirming approach that addresses executive functioning, motivation, habit formation, and stress management. Her methodology breaks overwhelming tasks into manageable steps through environmental cues and personalized strategies.

The conversation offers practical wisdom for anyone struggling with daily functioning. Dr. Pham explains that occupational therapy targets any activity people need or want to do but find challenging—from cleaning rooms to managing work-life balance. "The hardest part is starting," she notes, sharing techniques like creating visual reminders and treating personal growth as an experiment. Her innovative approaches, such as having a young client pretend to be a vlogger while organizing, demonstrate how creativity can transform mundane tasks into engaging experiences.

Whether you're facing your own challenges or supporting someone through theirs, Dr. Pham's story reminds us that resilience isn't just about bouncing back—it's about using our struggles to create meaningful impact for others. Listen now to discover how small, intentional changes can lead to profound transformation.

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Angela Pham:

I decided to drop out of my bio class with a W, and I don't know if people know this, but apparently if you have a W from dropping a class, it looks bad, and so I thought there was a lot of weight to that in a bad light. But lo and behold, I ended up going into grad school anyways, so that W was actually not that serious. It's just in that time frame of my life it felt very serious, and so I wanted to be very honest and say I experienced failures. That was my first time experiencing an academic failure in my life, and so that was, you know, kind of a turning point where I decided what should I do now? What can I do?

Angela Pham:

And so I started really focusing on my mental health and I took a class under the occupational therapy school, which was the start of everything. I started learning and applying strategies to my life on how to improve my lifestyle, and it worked. I figured out how my mind works, I figured out ways to make myself thrive, and I realized that you can learn coping strategies. It may not come naturally, but there are ways to always find things that work for you, and that inspired me to want to pursue the career that I chose.

Daniel Koo:

Hey, welcome back to my Perfect Path. For those of you who are new, I'm your host, daniel Koo, and I welcome you to season two. For me, at large, pivotal moments of my life, such as applying to new colleges, applying to new jobs or determining what next career move is right for me I spend time researching and finding mentorship to determine what was the best path for me. I knew that this struggle was not isolated to me. Everyone struggles with this, simply because we cannot predict the future. However, I found something that is second best to predicting the future it's learning from those ahead of our career and from those who've seen more and experienced more. After all, there are not that many problems that have not been solved yet. If you've ever felt unsure about your next career move, you're in the right place. Hey, I'm excited to welcome Dr Angela Pham to the podcast. Angela is a licensed occupational therapist who specializes in mental health, an area pursued by only about 3% of occupational therapists in the United States. She chose this rare specialty to focus on helping individuals with ADHD, autism, anxiety, depression and burnout through telehealth practice, as she stood up on her own.

Daniel Koo:

Today's episode is called my Resilient Path. As a first-generation college student, she earned three degrees from USC, despite the initial academic stress. Her clinical residency, working with formerly incarcerated individuals with severe mental illness, shaped her trauma-informed approach to care. In this episode, you'll learn how to turn academic struggles into strengths, why treating yourself as an experiment accelerates growth, and practical strategies for breaking down overwhelming goals into manageable steps. Her story shows that resilience isn't just about bouncing back. It's about using your challenges to create meaningful impact for others.

Daniel Koo:

Today, I'm excited to welcome Dr Angela Pham to the podcast. Angela is a licensed occupational therapist who specializes in mental health, an area pursued by only about 3% of occupational therapists in the United States. She runs her own telehealth practice focused on helping individuals with ADHD, autism, anxiety, depression and burnout to implement a sustainable lifestyle to support their daily functioning. I think what makes Dr Pham's approach distinct is her neural, affirming, holistic lens that addresses executive functioning, motivation, habit formation, sensory needs and stress management, and beyond her professional work. I think you do a great job identifying with resilience as your core quality, and that's something that we can really learn from today. Welcome to my Perfect Path. I'm thrilled to have you here on the podcast to share your resilient path with us today.

Angela Pham:

Thank you for having me, Hello everyone.

Daniel Koo:

As my first question I want to ask you your telehealth practice focuses on helping clients with ADHD, autism and anxiety and burnout. What made you choose this very specific niche within occupational therapy?

Angela Pham:

Yeah, so in general, mental health within occupational therapy is already a niche in itself and so my areas of expertise, which you just listed, is kind of a more specific diagnosis type of approach for people to resonate with me and whether or not they want to work with me. But in general, being a mental health occupational therapist means that I basically help people get back to doing the things that they need to do or have to do, and my approach is basically through lifestyle behavioral changes, so anyone who needs a lifestyle or behavioral change could benefit from occupational therapy.

Daniel Koo:

I think last time we talked about you know if you want to work out, but you haven't been doing that for a while and you feel like it's kind of debilitating in a way, where you really do want to do it but you don't. Or maybe it's cleaning your room. Are those things also something that you cover?

Angela Pham:

Yes, so that is a part of lifestyle management, right? And I think the example that I gave to you regarding working out more is breaking down the steps into an easy step as possible, and I think I told you, for example, setting aside workout shoes or workout clothes the night before or maybe hours before you plan on doing it will help alert you and cue you to reminding you oh, my workout clothes are out on my bed. That means I wanted to work out. It's already there, so I might as well try and work out. So those are all cues, occupational therapy strategies that would motivate people, or at least motivate them a little bit more, into wanting to complete that task.

Daniel Koo:

I guess that's just a part of what you do, right? So we'll get into some of the tips and tricks on how to achieve your goals and things like that as well. But right now, what is kind of like the state of your career, what have you been doing before and what is kind of like something that you're working on right now?

Angela Pham:

Yes. So right now I started a private practice where I am the sole practitioner for my practice and it's kind of touching upon what you mentioned when you introduced me. I work with clients who need to make lifestyle behavioral changes and these clients can have ADHD, autism, anxiety, burnout, stress management in general. But what inspired me to want to start my own practice was actually my experience from my former job, where I was working with clients kind of in the same population and they worked with people across the lifespan. So I was working with college students who needed better studying habits to prepare for midterms or finals. I was working with working professionals who needed to manage work and life at home. I was also working with executives who needed better time management and work prioritization strategies which I was also able to apply as an occupational therapist using my lens and retirees who were they were balancing more of life transitions and how to prioritize leisure and leisure being productive as well. So my experience from that job gave me the confidence to want to try and start my own thing.

Daniel Koo:

So it seems like you've, you know, already had a very wide range of clients that enabled you to kind of gain the confidence to make your own practice. Is it pretty common to make your own practice in your field, or is it? Is it a very difficult thing to kind of stand up?

Angela Pham:

Yeah, I love that question because, as mentioned earlier, so mental health OT is already a niche right. So I think mental health OTs starting their own practice is kind of a more rare thing to see right now. But on the flip side, ots in general, ots being occupational therapists they do have their own practices. It's just more of a group setting and group practice, as in other disciplines, are also in that company with them and they are more in the traditional settings. So what traditional OT normally looks like?

Daniel Koo:

Tell us about how you spend your day. I just want to know what your day-to-day looks like. Do? You have a lot of control over your time. Do you work remotely and things like that to kind of highlight the benefits of this career and this path.

Angela Pham:

Yeah. So I'm glad you asked that because I think right now, in my current stage of working on my business, as I last mentioned to you when we saw each other I was wrapping up the backend stuff of my business, backend being the legal stuff getting a business license, malpractice insurance, the software that I want to use for my business and now that I'm more public now. So I finished having a website, I'm more focused on the marketing aspect and that looks like adding myself onto directories psychology directories and maybe people are more familiar with one of them being psychology. Today, when you Google search therapist near me, usually a directory will pop up for you to find therapists on that. So now I'm more focused on the marketing aspect while also juggling a caseload, caseload being the clients I'm seeing right now.

Daniel Koo:

So currently you know there's a lot on your plate because you have to stand up your own business. You have to do your own marketing, all the quote, unquote, boring stuff with the legal, making sure you have insurance and everything. Do you enjoy that right now or do you feel like it's a? You know it's a lot, it's a big lift.

Angela Pham:

I think, lots of mixed emotions. Mixed emotions because this is the first time I'm doing this, so I feel very new and I feel like there is no one direction to go and I don't have all the answers. So I'm kind of riding the wave of feeling like kind of ambiguous territory, while also trying to do a lot of research. So I feel mixed emotions of like some confidence on some days, some uncertainty on other days, and I think, in general, I am enjoying it though, because I am learning something new and I think I I think I embody growth mindset a lot, where I try to improve in certain areas for my personal development, and I think I mean I've always wanted to own a business, so I'm more interested in seeing where this goes and hopeful I'm hopeful that I'll get a lot out of this and we'll see what happens.

Daniel Koo:

Yeah, I really liked that attitude. Obviously, myself, I'm really interested in growth mindset as well. You know, this whole journey with the podcast is, you know, trying to find my own path as well, as well as learning from others. The episode title today is named my Resilient Path. Title today is named my Resilient Path and I want to ask you why you chose the word resilient.

Angela Pham:

Yes. So I chose the word resilient because I think it really represents all the challenges I faced to get to where I am at now, and that can stem as far back as childhood upbringing, to pivotal decisions and pathways in my life, like through college, grad school and even now, where I chose to start my own practice.

Daniel Koo:

Let's get into that a little bit. Could you tell us about your childhood, how you grew up and maybe, if there were some obstacles or challenges, what those were?

Angela Pham:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, so growing up I came from a low-income single-parent household with three brothers, so I was the only girl in my family, which can bring about a lot of challenges in itself, because I fought with my brothers a lot.

Daniel Koo:

Were you the firstborn.

Angela Pham:

No, I'm the third child, so.

Angela Pham:

I had two older brothers and one younger, and it was a constant battlefield, but also just the challenges that come with.

Angela Pham:

I'm a second generation Vietnamese, chinese, american and I'm a first generation college student, so there were a lot of resources that I did not necessarily have or were given to me right away, and so I felt like with my childhood it was a lot of navigating through life on my own, it felt like, and being able to identify how to be resourceful, how to find answers for myself, because my mom was not in the position to be able to answer that for me. She was very busy, you know, working and providing for me and my brothers, and so I became kind of, in a sense, independent early on. But that taught me a lot about being disciplined. That contributed to my grit, where I am able to persevere and work through challenges while also remaining hopeful that there are better things at the end of the tunnel, while also remaining hopeful that there are better things at the end of the tunnel, and if I work hard enough then I can get those things, and I think I manifested those into the person that I am today.

Daniel Koo:

Something that's interesting is that you know you and I went to the same undergrad, so you know, fight on. You know we're from USC, but you know our background is very different. You know, I went to an international school, uh in korea, where you know there were a ton of resources, um to go to college, um, but I thought it was super interesting that we ended up uh in the same college and I think that just goes to show, you know, how much effort you put into your career while having different resources, um, and I think the the lessons that you learn from that. I think today I want want to go into so that if people are in similar situations or, you know, it could just be the fact that you come from a different country and you don't have those resources what kind of values you should have, what kind of qualities you should embody in order for you to get to this kind of stage for you.

Daniel Koo:

What stood out to me is that you earned three degrees from USC. I think that's pretty rare and you did that in such a short timeframe, and I thought that was something that really showed your resilient path and some qualities that I think I really want to learn from you. So can you tell us about what those degrees were and if you ever intended to do that, or is that something that just kind of came along the way?

Angela Pham:

I love that question. So my degrees I got a bachelor's in psychology at USC for undergrad and then I got a master's in occupational therapy at USC as well, and then I decided to pursue a doctorate, an advanced doctorate degree, for that was only a year, also at USC for occupational therapy, and I was not intent. I didn't come into USC thinking I was going to get three degrees from the school. If anything. I want to be quite honest and say my, despite performing really well in high school and being a highieving student, I struggled a lot in my first year at USC.

Angela Pham:

I came in as a spring admit, which means I started school in January. So I already felt kind of behind when I first started. And I came in as a pre-med student, thinking I was trying to aim for med school and as a result I had to take pre-med classes, so like bio, and that was a struggle. I had no idea what weeder classes were or how that felt. But I think I was weeded out because I mean, I'm not, I'm not in med school, I'm not a medical doctor, I just you know, I really struggled because I think I had a difficult time adapting to new environments and, compounded with imposter syndrome. Everyone around me in college was so smart. People were coming from all different walks of life, different backgrounds, and my classmates were very intelligent individuals.

Daniel Koo:

I think also if you're in the pre-med kind of group, a lot of these students end up being very high performers in high school, on track to go to med school. So they're very intense.

Angela Pham:

Yes, and I think this is my first time being exposed to really high caliber individuals who were destined for med school. Some of these individuals had parents who are doctors, so they knew from the beginning they were going to become doctors, and they are doctors now, and that's awesome. It's just, I think, for freshman year, angela, she had a really hard time balancing the new workload at USC. Being away from home, that's a new change and, yeah, like I felt really insecure. I really struggled with imposter syndrome and I think that also was the start of my journey of having anxiety. So a lot of that compounded together, and so the beginning of college was really hard.

Angela Pham:

However, I decided one day that I wanted to change my life. I was tired of feeling very anxious. I wanted to be able to understand what are things I can do, steps I can take to turn my life around. I decided to drop out of my bio class with a W, and I don't know if people know this, but apparently if you have a W from dropping a class, it looks bad, and so I thought there was a lot of weight to that in a bad light. But, lo and behold, I ended up going into grad school anyways, so that W was actually not that serious.

Angela Pham:

It's just in that time frame of my life it felt very serious, and so I wanted to be very honest and say I experienced failures. That was my first time experiencing an academic failure in my life, and so that was, you know, kind of a turning point where I decided what should I do now? What can I do? And so I started really focusing on my mental health and I took a class under the occupational therapy school, which was the start of everything. I started learning and applying strategies to my life on how to improve my lifestyle, and it worked. I figured out how my mind works, I figured out ways to make myself thrive, and I realized that you can learn coping strategies. It may not come naturally, but there are ways to always find things that work for you, and that inspired me to want to pursue the career that I chose.

Daniel Koo:

I think it's great that you know your field is helping people achieve their goals and overcome certain things or like challenges that you may face, and it's something that you've already done, so I think that really helps you become a much more stronger person that can help other people Also. You know, I think we all go through that. You know that phase of failure. I remember my first W at USC. It was like some linear algebra course that I guess it was just too much for me at the time, yeah, and I thought the world was crumbling and I called my sister. I was like I'm a failure, I don't think I can do this, but it ends up being all okay. And I learned a lot then and there as well. At the time my sister was like GPA is forever, so you better get your crap together, but also that it's going to be okay at the same time, Like it's you know you have to pay attention, but you know it's not the end of the world.

Angela Pham:

Yeah.

Daniel Koo:

To me it seems like you really fast-tracked the degrees that you got. Oh yeah, you know, considering that you're still very young and you're able to start your own practice, it's very intense. I want to talk about, maybe, your former residency as well and how you were able to kind of continue your kind of success throughout that company or that firm and to be able to create your own firm as well.

Angela Pham:

So, yes, I guess my path is more traditional, with an OT Occupational therapy. Grad programs are typically two years and I chose to get the doctorate for another one year, but it was only because I had my master's at USC, so it was advanced in a way. I already had some credits that were able to be transferable. And during my doctorate year we are required to do a clinical residency, and this residency typically is supposed to kind of be a specialization, if you would like to make that a specialization. And so throughout grad school I had a lot of internships that were in mental health and that made me really reconsider what setting I wanted to work in.

Angela Pham:

Originally. I came into OT school thinking I was going to work with children with developmental delays or disabilities and, however, because of my internships I started learning more about how OT looks like in mental health, and so that influenced me to do a mental health residency and, honestly, the residency changed my life because I was working with formerly incarcerated individuals with severe mental illness like schizophrenia, and seeing how OT was able to change their lives I got, I think, a lot of my clinical experiences early on were really shaped and formed through this residency. Experiences early on were really shaped and formed through this residency and that experience landed me my next job, which was the job where I worked in the outpatient mental health clinic specializing in ADHD, autism, neurodivergent individuals and being able to get all my experiences across a lifespan at that job. So my residency allowed me to get the job that I had, which inspired me to start my private practice. They're all connected.

Daniel Koo:

It seems like your career. At this point it's really kind of gaining speed because you know you already got your education, you're in training. But to get to this point, what was kind of going through your head at the time, is it? I'm just curious what your drive is so is it kind of like the pressure to do well?

Angela Pham:

or is it?

Daniel Koo:

you know the hopes of being able to help a lot of people yeah, it's a.

Angela Pham:

It's a mix of both, because at this point in my life, I would say, my prefrontal cortex, like my frontal lobe, has been almost nearing development and I realized that that has been developing once. I started realizing that I'm able to gain perspectives and think about other people's perspectives more. Then I started realizing that to me success feels like alignment of my personal values into my everyday life, everyday life including my professional life, and so I value that growth mindset, I value self-development. I really feel, I think I'm an empathetic person, so I really resonate with people and their experiences, and I would say connecting with people is not a hard thing for me to do. And so mental help I already knew that was a calling of mine at this point. And so choosing this career or choosing this specialty and specifically starting my own private practice is because I believe in myself and I know that I can help people achieve the goals that they want to do.

Daniel Koo:

Let's kind of double click into what you just said about your calling. When did you realize that? And if someone wants to find their own calling, what's an advice that you can give?

Angela Pham:

So I'll answer the first part. I got to the point where I am at now because of all the self-reflection that I was forced to do when I started reconciling the reality that I had anxiety in college. That is a part of me and I've come to accept that. However, it took a lot of self-reflection. It took a lot of sitting with myself and being at peace with myself, and that was my college years. In grad school, I started to feel more comfortable with my skin, my identity, and I started doing or being more comfortable with the uncomfortable sitting with yes, I have anxiety, but I also wanna do this, I also can do that, and so grad school was when I felt like I was finally the person who I am. I feel very comfortable in my skin, and so grad school was more so the gaining experience. Now that I have reached that stage. And then now, present day, I know exactly who I am, and I feel like that's because it was credited to years of self-reflection.

Daniel Koo:

I think that's pretty rare for people to do at that age. You know, I'm still figuring out who I am. Is there like a certain practice that you did Like? Is this something that you learned during occupational therapy or how did you get about like doing that? Are you sitting in your room like writing something down? I'm curious.

Angela Pham:

Yes, no great question, because it looks different for every person. Um, some people love meditation. Mindfulness, meditation was a is a huge thing for some people. But some people cannot meditate and it's not their type, their cup of tea, which is totally fine. And then there are other methods, such as journaling, is one.

Angela Pham:

For me personally, it's a lot of I call it daydreaming. It's kind of meditation in a way, but I like to positively imagine a future that I can see myself in, or I like to hope for myself and believe in things for myself and also being comfortable with being in my head. So I'd have a lot of internal dialogue, conversations with myself and getting to know myself, which meditation is more so of the sitting, with how you feel and acknowledging that it's happening. So that's kind of why I prefer the daydreaming route, where I'm entertaining my thoughts and being okay with, once again, the unsettling feeling of anxiety or uncertainty. So there are different ways to reflect, there are different ways to ponder, in a sense, and the thing is it takes a lot of time because you can't just have well, some people can, you can't just have a one moment, aha, and suddenly inspiration and motivation hits you all at once.

Daniel Koo:

I am self-actualized now.

Angela Pham:

But it takes some time to also build that courage, like build the diligence and build the momentum to enact change.

Daniel Koo:

I think so kind of going back to your career track when you went to Spectrum Psych LA, what were some of the things that you learned there, or some of the unexpected challenges that you faced by working in a firm with all other people?

Angela Pham:

Yes, so lots of great experiences that I have with Spectrum Psych LA. I learned how well first it was my real not first time experiencing working on a team, because technically everywhere in my mental health experiences there was a clinical behavioral health team, but with Spectrum Psych in particular it was because it was my first time in an outpatient mental health setting that was more traditional mental health, meaning I was their second OT ever to be at the company and the first one was actually a former professor of mine from my grad program. Yeah, so the connections I guess was real, the Trojan connection. But also I think my residency prepared me for that job and Spectrum Psych taught me a lot. It taught me, it gave me the experiences to work with, like I said, different types of people. It taught me, it gave me the experiences to work with, like I said, different types of people, different populations, and it allowed me to also experience telehealth as a platform. And I think all of those skills equipped me for wanting me to start my own practice.

Daniel Koo:

I also want to ask you what was the process for you to apply to? You know a firm in the world of OT and you know how important connections are you know, for example, in tech companies we do have a referral program that will at least get the recruiters to look at your resume, because you know it's online application. There's, you know, tens of thousands of applications.

Angela Pham:

Yeah.

Daniel Koo:

That's one way to make it stand out a little bit. Is there a similar kind of process for you guys, or is it kind of word of mouth? You know, referrals?

Angela Pham:

So referrals would be more word of mouth. But I think in specifics to Spectrum Psych LA, I think they were looking for someone who had a doctorate and I think out of the applicants only a few had a doctorate degree and I think I was the only one from USC and I was the only one who happened to know the OT working there, my former professor, because she remembered my name and I think she also remembered how I looked.

Daniel Koo:

So she yeah, because it was a virtual class.

Angela Pham:

And so she decided to, I think, look me up and I guess that connection was basically a bridge for me and I was able to get the interview because there was a connection there Within OT. I don't know if necessarily it's hard to get a job as an OT, because I think OTs are high in demand right now actually within the workforce, but I think to get a job that's highly coveted or a job that you really want, then connections and referrals do matter.

Daniel Koo:

Yeah, I can really relate to that. I think, you know, even in the tech space, with a referral, there's a high chance that you'll at least get an interview or at least be given a chance to even show your skills, or at least be given a chance to even show your skills. So maybe we can talk a little bit about you know, standing out and being, you know like, maybe go into why that professor might have looked at you. Were there any qualities that you were able to showcase during your class, or do you think, what do you think is the reason that that person chose you?

Angela Pham:

the reason that that person chose you. So I think, well, during my grad program I did do an extracurricular that my professor was in charge of, so she may have also remembered me more because of the extracurricular that I did. However, I'm leaning more towards that. I think I was able to get an interview because I was a USC alum and I had a doctorate degree and I think out of the OT programs, I think USC has a really strong mental health focus on theories and that foundation. I think you can safely assume that if someone comes from a USC OT program, they are pretty well equipped to do mental health, and so I think my professor decided to give me an interview. Because of that bet, the odds were in my favor and the interview went really well, and maybe that's also different reasons for why.

Daniel Koo:

So it seems like there's, you know, many factors that go into this and you know having connections is pretty important. You know doing well in those classes, obviously, and potentially you know standing out by doing extracurriculars. You know that's going to help you a lot. Let's go into a little bit about your you know transition into your own practice. What were kind of like the calculated risks that you took and you would have had to adapt in traditional OT techniques to work effectively in a remote environment? I think that would be very interesting to talk to as well.

Angela Pham:

Oh, good questions. So calculated risk. I actually was not intending to start a practice so soon. If I'm being completely honest, and circumstances led up to me wanting to start my own practice, it was me coming to an end with my former job because things happened where I realized that it wasn't sustainable for me to keep the job as a full-time job. However, I also signed a non-compete with them, meaning I cannot start my own thing.

Angela Pham:

So I left the company and essentially took a sabbatical where I rested and my subconscious brain was working a lot on what should I do? Should I apply to traditional OT jobs, traditional mental health OT jobs, or should I try and do something different? And so during my sabbatical, I thought about it a lot. I essentially motivated myself to take that risk. That risk being, I'll leave aside some time for me to try and start this, and if it's not turning out to be what I want it to be, I can always go back to a traditional OT job.

Angela Pham:

There are plenty of traditional OT jobs out there, and so I knew there was a cushion of some sort, and so I decided to adopt that YOLO, you only live once mentality, and because I was fresh out of my job.

Angela Pham:

I still had the confidence and I still know how to engage with clients. It's still very fresh and, honestly, it was a matter of I should do this sooner than later if I decide to commit to it. And so I was finished thinking about it and the hardest part is starting, as anything is, and I decided to do baby steps. I worked on things like one step at a time, googled and researched the one topic at a time and slowly I started finishing up my to-do list for back end things, and that's kind of why I, or how I, came to start my private practice. It wasn't intentional, it was more so. The universe kind of created this path for me and I decided to answer and be okay with what happens at the end. I don't know for sure 100%. Am I going to keep this in the future or is it going to be what I want it to be, but so far I'm enjoying it and things are going pretty well right now.

Daniel Koo:

I think you'd approach this in a very safe way. You knew what the risks were, you knew what to go back into, you knew what the advantages of taking this risk is, and I really like that. You do your due diligence and I think that's very important for people taking risks. Sometimes, if you have an idea, you just go for it. In the tech space, you tend to do that. You have an idea, you just go and make it. But I really like the approach that you're taking. It feels very safe for what it is and I think that's something we can learn as well.

Angela Pham:

That's so interesting. I'll add one more thing. I think it's interesting how you perceive it as safe, because I have moments where I freak out and I'm wondering am I doing the right thing? But I have days where I feel I am doing the right thing. So I think in starting a business in general, maybe the shared feeling is that you will be anxious and questioning things, but you'll have moments of oh no, I think this is the right thing to do. There is a need out there and I want to help fill that gap.

Daniel Koo:

I guess it looks safe in the sense of you know, if you look at startups, you know you tend to go and pitch your idea to investors and now you're messing with other people's money and you know there are people you need to answer to the results you have to give. But if you're independent, yeah, um, I guess you have full control over that, that's true, okay, I will add this in too.

Angela Pham:

Then, in comparison, I actually have low I startup costs then because I don't have to really invest a lot of money to be able to start my own private practice actually and I think this is very industry specific and there's like the random, like software programming, monthly fees. My license renewal is kind of part of the process of having a license, right, so those minor costs like that. But it's definitely not dealing with investors or in a more start like tech startup traditional way.

Daniel Koo:

Yeah, let's go into some of the things, such as your neuroaffirming methodology. I have no idea what that is, yes, so I would love to learn what that is, and also I want to get into what are some of the tips and tricks on living life from an OT perspective.

Daniel Koo:

So I'm sure there's advice you can give to people to help achieve their goals. Also to show you know what OT can do for you, and I'm sure the tips you can give. Here is pretty generic to the audience and I'm sure you go into, you know into the details of it with each client and what they need. But is there something that you can tell us in this perspective?

Angela Pham:

Yes, okay, lots of questions. I'll start with the first one, just because my experience working with neurodivergent individuals essentially I mean autism is on a spectrum and the thing is it's basically just the way that they perceive and interact with the world is different. But that's also if we're being client-centered and holistic. Everyone experiences and interacts with the world differently and so taking that perspective and meeting the person where they're at, meeting my client where they're at and being able to work with them at their own pacing, and that the and the way that they receive and perceive things, so that's just a very it's essentially being holistic and having a holistic approach to care. To answer your second set of questions, of any tips or advice it is very client specific because that's how you make it relatable, right.

Angela Pham:

But the common trend or theme is for a lot of people, the hardest part is starting. The hardest part of starting a routine is starting. It's the first step and that's kind of usually the motivation. The gap that people see me for is how do I motivate myself, how do I actualize this into reality? And that's kind of where I come in in hacking their brains and seeing is there a way for me to change the environment to cue them, to remind them of a goal that they really want to work on. But they just need the extra push for that. So I usually tell people make the step as easy as possible and simple as possible. So let's use the example of cleaning your room.

Daniel Koo:

Exactly this is something that I need to listen to and learn myself.

Angela Pham:

Yes. So I know, for example, some people hate cleaning, like, okay, I actually thought of bathroom when I said room for some reason, but let's use the bathroom example. Some people hate cleaning the bathroom, and that's fair. There's a lot of sensory overload that comes with cleaning your bathroom and a lot of effort that it needs to take right. But some people I'll suggest do you want to put a squeegee in your shower and maybe before you start showering or even after, you can wipe down a little bit of your shower door? That's cleaning. That is actually maintaining the cleanliness of your shower. So that's one hack is to basically set your environment up in a way where it's so easy for you to do it. The squeegee is right in front of you, you're already in the shower, the water's already on, you can do a little streaks on your glass and that's it. That's maintenance. So that's one example For your bedroom.

Angela Pham:

I would say you could make it as visible as possible a cleaning chart, and it could be in your face. So it could be right on your nightstand, on your bed, it could be behind your door before you have to leave your room, and these are visual cue reminders for you to. Oh yeah, I'm supposed to make my bed and then cross it off, and so that's a little minor change, but it's actually sometimes enough for some people to want to clean their bed or something like that. Those are little hacks, essentially.

Daniel Koo:

I have a quick question. So let's say we tried that. Let's say we have a chart, but in the next session you realize that that didn't really work. What are some of the questions that you ask them to figure out? Like what went wrong or like what we can change.

Angela Pham:

Yeah. Well, I always start with asking them can you walk me through your day? Kind of yeah. So I want to understand how are they experiencing their daily life, and I will usually find a time or part of their day that I will target to help them enhance the likelihood of being able to do that. And so, for the first step is always walk me through what happened, and then a reflection piece of okay, how did you interact with that? Did you not interact? Because that also tells me a lot, and so we'll basically find other ways for them to respond to the environment.

Angela Pham:

And if the environment doesn't work, a lot of cognitive strategies could be a reminder system, and that could be your phone, and I would ask them while walking me through their day is there a time of day where they spend the most time in their room and maybe we can make it a break? Maybe, let's say, they're studying and then they need a study break. Maybe in that 15 minute break they could quickly move up their body while also tending to these tasks, so we can set an alarm. That's specifically intentional. That isn't a very intentional break that is targeted towards cleaning the room, and so this is where it gets really client specific. I need the details of their life for me to make it as relatable to them and doable. So that's kind of my approach, though it's the I need to know how they're living their daily lives for me to know how can I intervene.

Daniel Koo:

You know, what convinces me that the mental health portion of OT is very important and could be really effective is that you know you're really looking into what the client does and it's really client dependent. There's no you know drug that you're you know administering and like there's no formula that you're using because you know everyone's different. So I love that it's a custom solution for each and you're really and I'm sure you have to build a relationship with them so that they trust you. And to try this For the clients, are they usually just coming to you personally or are they kind of could it also be like parents trying to get their kids to you know to do something?

Angela Pham:

Yes, so I work with clients across the lifespan. So if parents have come to me and it's because they are finding it difficult for their children to be able to do some of these more independent activities like juggling responsibilities and even time management with making sure they get homework done on time while also living a fulfilling lifestyle. And so, even if parents come to me, at the end of the day my client is the child, and I want to know the child and I will always have the relationship with the child. However, the parent will get some updates here and there, and for adults, it's the balancing of, usually, work and life, or if work is consuming their life, it's the. Can I help you with work prioritization strategies then, so that you are able to make time for life? And sometimes in the life space it's a lot of errands or chores or tasks that they have to juggle. So maintaining a float is, or people who struggle with balancing and staying afloat usually see me too, because they want to essentially reclaim the life that they want.

Daniel Koo:

I think we have a sense of how you're working and the people you deal with, and I want to know, now that you've told us how you work and previously we talked about how resilience is one of your core qualities, and you know, previously we talked about how resilience is one of your core qualities Is there something that you try to not teach but influence your clients so that they can build resilience as well?

Angela Pham:

Oh, yes, it's so.

Angela Pham:

I tell all my clients that this is an experiment and the experiment is very unique to them because they are the ones that will be experimenting on themselves, and with an experiment there's no guarantee that there will be a immediate positive change. However, it's a process where you learn a lot about yourself and your identity, and it helps in that data. We can extrapolate that and apply it to a different experiment. So the thing is, some people don't even know themselves that well enough to be able to implement this experiment on themselves, and so I feel like that's where I come in as kind of a facilitator. You got to be open minded, you got to be willing to step out of your comfort zone, you got to be able to, or be willing to, experiment and try something new, because if you've never tried it, how do you know it won't work? Or how do you know if it will work? And if it doesn't work, we will take what did work and apply it to a different scenario where, hopefully, we can maximize the chances of it being successful for you.

Daniel Koo:

Can you? Share with us a time when you had to go you had to get really creative and it kind of challenged you in a way. Maybe it was a more difficult kind of client or maybe it was a really difficult thing to achieve for that person.

Angela Pham:

Oh, okay, hmm, Let me think, because that's a really good question. That requires digging through my memory. Creativity is always a part of my job, though, because creativity is required for each person to make it as relatable. For them was with a child, and it was through telehealth, so virtual and their parent wanted them to basically develop responsibilities and be able to clean their room more, and so I treated it like a video game with the client, where I would told them okay, let's section off a part of your room, choose any corner of your room that you would like to start off with, and they selected a corner, and I was like awesome, so remember, keeping in mind I want to make this as simple and easy as possible. Awesome, so remember, keeping in mind, I want to make this as simple and easy as possible.

Angela Pham:

So, within that corner, I looked at whatever was a piece of furniture, like a drawer or something that I thought we can make a project out of, and so we chose a drawer on the desk, and we're like okay, for today, our goal today is to work on this drawer and organize the papers that you need and you don't need. So two very simple categories, right, and at the end we were able to, or if my client was able to finish it at the end of our session. We always had room at the end for us to play a game together. So it's kind of that instant gratification reward. But also, this is all through telehealth, so it's like virtual. So I asked him throughout the process to make it sound like he's a vlogger. Oh, okay.

Angela Pham:

I was like all right, show me your space that you're working with. So then my client was like what's up, youtube? I'm YouTube, though.

Daniel Koo:

What's up?

Angela Pham:

Chad yeah, yeah, and he's like, okay, today I will be doing this. No, yes, no yes.

Angela Pham:

And after that it was done. And I think that was a habit that we were trying to build is that maybe sometimes you need a person to facilitate it for you. But each time you complete this task, this chore, it gets easier. And the more your space becomes recognizable and manageable, it becomes easier to maintain, and so I was able to help elicit some of that motivation over time. But it did require a little bit of scaffolding in the beginning. Scaffolding because he needed, you know, prompting where I'm like, talk to me like I am your streamer. But that made it fun enough for him to want to do it.

Daniel Koo:

I think that really goes to show you know your unique talents of you know coming up with these solutions as well. So I really commend you for that, and I'm also curious what you get out of this as well, like, do you feel very fulfilled after your job, after each session? What are some of the things you're feeling?

Angela Pham:

Yeah, oh no. I love it Because to me it feels like an experiment as well, where I am a curious and engaged learner. So I want to know. I want to know how it's going to turn out too, and so I think I take joy and pride in being able to come up with these factors, like adding these variables into an equation and then seeing what the answer is. So to me, I think this kind of scratches that part of my brain where it's very problem solving for thinking, and so I think that, to me, is part of the fulfillment I get with my job, but also just knowing that I was able to help someone get one step closer to being able to function better in their daily life.

Daniel Koo:

I want to ask you what kind of qualities are needed in order to succeed in this field. It could be empathy, as you mentioned before. It could be being organized. I don't know if you struggle with that yourself as a mental health occupational therapist, but tell us what are some of the qualities that are very important to succeed in this field.

Angela Pham:

Yes.

Angela Pham:

So empathy, I think, is a universal trait for anyone hopefully working in healthcare, because when you're working with people, you want to be able to see things from their shoes and be able to talk to them like they're a person and not a product that you're working on.

Angela Pham:

So empathy, I think problem solving is a skill that you can develop, though, so you don't have to come into it already really good at problem solving and critical reasoning, but I think wanting to get better at developing the skill, being open-minded, is a quality as well.

Angela Pham:

I think the thing is with this job, you can also grow into it, and but I will say you need to be able to, I think, also have boundaries. So being confident in your boundary setting is a big one, because you don't want to take work home. When you're spending all day working with people, it can be emotionally taxing, and so in your free time you want to be able to live a life that you want for yourself, rather than taking the emotions and the hardship back home, because it is a lot that you can be dealing with as the person who is helping people, and their problems too. So I think a boundary setting is a huge one for any healthcare employee, even more so if you're in mental health, I think, because you need to be at some level of being okay in your own mental health to be helping people with their mental health.

Daniel Koo:

I can only imagine. Especially you know you mentioned during your residency. You're talking to people who have severe issues, something that may kind of exceed like normal limits. So I want to ask the flip side of that question, which is you know to whom would you not recommend this career?

Angela Pham:

Yes, immediately in my head, I'm thinking people who are extremely introverted and do not want to communicate with people, because for some people and it's very fair and valid if work to you is work and you just want to get the job done, then there are other career paths that you could do that, and you don't have to be constantly using up your social battery. For I will say, though, there are a lot of introverted people who are therapists. It's just they find a lot of joy in being able to give back and help people in that way, so it's like a trade-off that you're okay with, but I definitely think, if you're the type of person where you see a job as a job, maybe this would not be the best fit, because I think some of your personal values have to align with this type of job, because you are trying to make an impact on someone's life and you want to care in that regard as well.

Daniel Koo:

One of the last questions I want to ask you is what's something that you wish people would ask you about?

Angela Pham:

Oh, okay, that's the thing, because my field isn't as well known as other fields. People are always asking questions about what I do for work. That's the thing. Because my field isn't as well known as other fields, people are always asking questions about what I do for work and sometimes they ask me occupational therapy, as in a career therapist Occupation, occupational therapy occupation means any activity that you like, need to do, want to do an activity in general. So us doing a podcast together right now, that's an occupation, according to occupational therapy. Going to work, driving to work is an occupation. Eating and feeding yourself is an occupation. So occupation essentially means any activity, and so that's why occupational therapy what I do is I help people with any tasks that they're struggling with and I will try to help them optimize their life to be able to do it more effectively, given their personality, given their workload, their lifestyle. So that's kind of the summary of what I would tell people.

Daniel Koo:

I see. So you want to let it be known that occupational therapy actually covers a very wide range, and you may be needing therapy in places that you didn't even know there was therapy to be had. So, yeah, I guess that's something I'm learning as well. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing your journey so far. Some of the things I've learned. Well, first, I didn't know about occupational therapy in mental health. That's something new. I learned something that I'll definitely be watching out for.

Daniel Koo:

If I need it myself and if there's people that are struggling with things like this, there's obviously ways to suggest that to other people and kind of raise awareness on, you know, the healthcare that we have available to us. The other things I learned from you is resilience, you know, really fighting through the challenges and making sure you look back at yourself. I think the self-reflection was really important. I don't think I remember the last time I sat down with myself and really thought about who I am, but that's something you know I'm going to have to try and do in the future as well.

Daniel Koo:

The other thing I learned from you is taking calculated risks and making sure you're prepared for those risks. In a way, it's very bold, it's very non-traditional, but I think you knew exactly what you were getting out of it. You knew exactly what you're risking, and that gives you a lot of confidence and it gives us a framework on maybe you shouldn't just jump into it without knowing anything. Maybe you should think about it. So that's something that I learned. Thank you so much today for giving your stories, your insights, and I hope to have you on the podcast again at some point after your business takes off and you become a mogul in the occupational therapist.

Angela Pham:

Oh, that'd be awesome to reflect together in the future.

Daniel Koo:

Yes, exactly, yeah, I'll be signing up for your as a client maybe, but we'll see. Thank you so much.

Angela Pham:

No, thank you for having me. This was great.